How George Kao Walked Away From $75k Webinars—And Found Noble Work

If you’ve ever wondered how to market your business without sacrificing your values, this interview is for you.

George Kao built a successful coaching and course business using all the traditional online marketing tactics—funnels, tripwires, high-pressure webinars. Then…he gave it all up.

In this interview, we talk about why he rebuilt his business from scratch. We also discuss how both of us are thinking about AI in regards to the coaching industry.

What We Cover:

• [00:01:05] How George made $75K in an hour—and why he walked away. The moment he realized that big launches weren’t in alignment for him.

• [00:07:48] The spiritual influence that changed his business forever. How “Peace Pilgrim” inspired George to optimize for meaning, not money.

• [00:18:56] Why the best marketers aren’t always the best coaches. The surprising disconnect between revenue and transformation.

• [00:25:13] The overlooked secret to getting more clients. George’s favorite question to ask that reveals what people actually want to buy.

• [00:32:33] A non-sleazy webinar strategy that actually works. George started offering the first module of his paid courses for free as a webinar.

• [00:47:30] Behind the scenes of our AI clones. How we trained our bots, what people are using them for, and why content is more important than ever.

• [01:00:46] Which business model will win the AI game? We explore 3 different ways to monetize coaching bots (and what we’ve learned so far).

• [01:04:59] Why AI won’t replace coaching—but it might enhance it. What human coaches still offer that AI can’t replicate (yet).

Links Mentioned:

👉 Learn more about George: https://www.georgekao.com

👉 Try George's AI coach: http://ai.georgekao.com/

👉 Try Greg's AI coach: https://faxon.ai

👉 Peace Pilgrim: https://www.peacepilgrim.org/

Transcript:

00:00:00

“I don't want to prioritize money making and selling anymore. I want to prioritize how my heart feels and whether I genuinely feel that I'm doing noble work.”

Welcome to all those who are watching. I got George Kao with us. George, I've been following him for a while. We've been colleagues for a while now. One of the things I really admire about you, George, is your integrity. it you you push the bounds of I think in in a world where a lot of people who support coaches kind of position themselves as marketing

00:00:38

with integrity or marketing with love, right? I think that's become more common over the years as folks have realized that if you want to teach marketing and sales, one of the biggest objections you're going to come up with from people is, well, I don't want to be pushy or I don't want to sacrifice my values. So, a lot of people in our space, in kind of the guruish space, the teacher space have said, "Oh, there's an opportunity here." But to me, you're like the OG of

00:01:05

this and you're someone who's experienced both sides. Because for those who don't know George's story, like he started off marketing in a more conventional way with webinars, with more pressure type tactics, which is what most of us learn at first, and made a bunch of money doing it, and then actually scaled back when you had sort of an awakening about this doesn't feel comfortable for me anymore. I'm I'm curious. Was there a moment where that happened where it was like penny drop

00:01:35

moment? I need to shift this. Or was it something that happened over time when you started to shift the business model? No, super. First of all, I'm grateful to be here with you. Um honored to to be talking with you. Um I've seen your business and your influence, you know, blossom over the years and it's been amazing. And um yeah, so I think it was a gradual shift. Although there was kind of like more of a personal spiritual um year that got me to finally say I'm willing to let go and um you know dive

00:02:11

deep into my authenticity whatever that means, right? And um like be really among the people. But I think over the first couple years started in 2009 and you know fresh didn't know anything. So, learn from all the big boys. Back then it was just only boys or mostly boys. Learned from all the big boys about how to do selling, persuasion psychology and online marketing, digital marketing using funnels. Yeah. Back then already, you know, and funnels and trip wires and um high selling high

00:02:44

converting webinars and things like that. And I did it I did it myself and then clients said, "Can you teach it to me?" So I started teaching to people and then after a couple years like two to three years I just gradually felt like can I see myself doing this for the rest of my life cuz I I felt the ups and downs. I mean, that's that's one of the drawbacks, I think, of the more mainstream ways of launching, like launching big and launching with like if if I'm not feeling really

00:03:15

authentic about what I'm doing, then of course I'm performing only. I'm performing for a metric. I'm like, oh, this webinar, you know, I remember one webinar I made like 75,000 in an hour like that. It was a rush. And yet when the webinars didn't work or whatever, it didn't work as well. I'm like, "Oh, I only made only made $5,000 this webinar or whatever." It's like it's and then became being part of that circle of people. It became always like chasing more like, "Oh, what

00:03:44

what how much did you make, you know, this webinar or this this year, this month or whatever." And I'm like, I I just didn't feel well, I was performing. I was performing. I was competing and it didn't feel and and then so much of the effort is about the selling. And because so much energy went into that, there was less as a solopreneur. There was less energy left for delivering. I think that was and I always cared. I always tried to overd deliver. But because I was always selling, selling,

00:04:18

selling. The rush was in the selling. As as we both know as coaches, the transformation of the client and their benefit and growth over time is just like raising kids, just like, you know, changing yourself. It's a longer term process, not the rush that you get from selling on a webinar or selling during a launch. And so I think it was over time I'm like I see where my energy is going and I see where the rush is, where I'm getting my dopamine and I don't like it because I want to really um be with the

00:04:53

people and and the people I was learning from the people like the the Frank Karns of the world where were like they they were using really 100% sometimes 200% satisfaction guarant like really dramatic risk lowering or risk removal things where it's like, well, I have to be stupid if I don't buy this, if I don't spend the $2,000 on this course. I was charging $2,000 per course back in like 2010, 2011 already. And I'm like, yeah, sure. I don't mind getting, you know, 20% refunds, 30% refund rate. Frank

00:05:26

Kern's getting 50% refunds rates, so I'm only at 30%. But it always felt bad. I always felt like people are spending all this money and some people are brave enough or you know have the guts enough to ask for a refund because I was using so much hype back then to sell. And it's not like I didn't believe in my product. It was just that it was always using the most tip of the iceberg examples of success that is not likely for everybody, right? And so it's it was those kinds of t and lots lots lots of

00:05:59

that still happening today. Not in my business, but I see it because I see I hear people sign up for this and this and this and then finally they come to me after they've signed up for all the other ones and they're like, "George, okay, I I see what I see what the hype means now in marketing and and now it's like in 20 starting 22, I had a couple years of like 2022, 2012, sorry, 2012, I had a couple years of like spiritual, you know, deepening of my own path and my awareness and I'm like, "No, I don't

00:06:33

want to prioritize money making and selling anymore. I want to prioritize how my heart feels and whether I def genuinely feel that I'm doing noble work. That is what I want to do for the rest of my life. Noble work. even if I make less money especially you know it's like if I make less money it's because I'm still developing my skills of transformation of really supporting clients and as I grew my skills over the years I did see yeah of course word of mouth grew of course naturally right as as you get

00:07:12

lots of word of mouth too because of your own your your your skills to your clients anyway so that's um you know and and the spiritual thing I I'll just briefly mention And one of the influences um that I stumbled on at that time was the audio book of Peace Pilgrim. I always recommend this because well, first of all, it's free. You Google it. Peace Pilgrim audio book. This was a a woman break, have you heard of mention this or have you heard of Peace Pilgrim? Okay. this this really unique woman um

00:07:48

one day in her 20s had working a job you know mid to her to her mid 20s or maybe late 20s working a job she was quite successful or at least back then was modestly successful and then she also felt this like is this all that life is I feel like I'm following the societal expectations and I don't feel deeply fulfilled and so she had she just went and had a forest walk that lasted all night and she had a it was like one of those epiphany stories and one of those Buddha under the tree type

00:08:21

stories and all night forest walk she came out a different person and said no I'm I'm going to leave behind and hers is a very dramatic story I don't I'm not called to do exactly what she did but I take from her energy signature and her principles and the heroism of her story and a deep deeply influenced me. So what she did was she said, "I'm just going to leave society behind, one of the first modern, you know, kind of pilgrims west in the west." So she walked from town to town and refused to

00:08:59

use money. This is again very dramatic. And refused to beg for food, shelter, anything. And she only accepted what was given to her. And she helped people along her path just whenever whoever people needed help, she went to help them and and gave her gave them comfort and whatever skills she had and and people offered her things. And she she you're like, "Oh, that's a that's a very sweet, you know, very very humble story." And how long did that last? Three three months. Um three years

00:09:29

maybe. Maybe maybe three years. 30 years. She did this for 30 years, walking from one end of America to the other end and back and back and back. And she just kept doing that for 30 years. And she was walking and and basically talking to people about their their, you know, their emotional life, spiritual life, and helping out physically what she can and only she slept on the roads most of the time. She slept in um, you know, empty abandoned warehouses, you know, ate ate berries from the road and things

00:09:57

like that. It was really, you know, listening to her audio book is was so healing for me because it was so different from what I was experiencing. I'm all digital, all online, and here's a woman who's all offline and doing and I'm all about money and she was all not about money. And so that juxosition really shook me and I'm like, "Oh, wow." And just the voice of the recording is from a friend of hers, not from her peace program herself, but a friend reading her words. And that that voice

00:10:26

was deeply healing as well. So again, Google it. Peace Pilgrim audio book. It's free. Listen to it. See if it has any impact on you. And from there I said if peace pilgrim can live without money. Okay. And and was the happiest you know according to her friends was like the happiest person that they they ever knew and most peaceful person. And anyway, so I said I'm not going to go and become homeless like her. That's not my calling. But I'm going to take those principles and like be radical

00:10:58

in how I approach my business and say I'm just going to and I experimented with a lot of different models over over the years as a result. So long story short, um I started to take a lot less money in in 2014 when I re revamped my business. I took a lot less money, focus more on developing skills and kind of like really serving people. And that's also when I discovered the magic of content creation. I'm like because I never created content before that. All all of it was just selling and joint

00:11:25

ventures just from 2009 to 2014. It was all just, you know, who needs a who needs an audience? You just go tap on other people's audiences and sell sell sell sell and make plenty of money. But it wasn't money for retirement money, but it was it was enough money to like be pretty well off in San Francisco. And 2014, I'm like giving it all up. Starting 2012, I started to shift a little bit. 2014, gave it all up, started over, took a lot less money for my services, and kind of started humbly

00:11:55

building up. I was charging $2,000 per class. 2014, I started charging $25 for a two-hour class. It wasn't like a long class, two-hour class, $25. And and then on onwards now, like every year, I added a little bit more money. As my skills continued to grow, I created more content. I started creating content in 2014 saying, I'm just going to give away as much as I can. um from my heart and and really it it you know first year nobody watched nobody read but I kept going because I was doing it

00:12:27

as a as a as a peace pilgrim myself to to explore my own voice and 2015 it started getting some traction 2016 definitely started getting more traction and now of course you know we're recording this you know 10 years later 11 years later and I now have an audience of you know much more true fans so much easier to sell now because of those years of building authentic content, sharing from the heart, being as humble as I could with providing services, improving my skills, getting word of mouth, getting feedback. My

00:13:03

refund rate is now almost at zero. Um, I mean, it's really rare now I get a refund request. It's mostly like, "Oh, I realized I can't do this course because something happened in my family or whatever." of course you but anyway so I'll I'll stop talking now and see um what what if anything is resonating if you have any questions but you know thanks for letting me tell my story of course and I've always wondered about the details of it so I appreciate you sharing it because it's

00:13:33

that takes sacrifice to say I'm making this amount of money let me do something that feels right to me knowing it's probably not opt optimizing for the money anymore, which obviously was a priority for you. So, you're saying, "I'm going to give this up, at least in the short term, to get this thing that's more important to me that doesn't feel good." And that's a hard shift to make. Um, because there I think there are like at the end of the day, there are trade-offs between

00:14:02

what's maybe going to feel most in integrity and what makes the most money. Like there are trade-offs in business. We can say all we want build a business that makes a lot of money that's in integrity and your value and you can do that. There's a way to do that but trade-offs still exist. You know what I mean? So the typically the people who are the richest in the world are not necessarily doing the things that are most healing for the world. Sometimes there's a link and that's great. It's not that we should be

00:14:30

scared of money or money is evil, but there are trade-offs. I I appreciate you kind of leading the way in being able to take that I guess take that step back and then let it build up in a really healthy sustainable way where you didn't have the ups and downs. Man, I I it's so so wise for you to say that there are trade-offs because as as always and like you said, the people who make the most money, I mean, I can see it in in our industry, right, are not the people who ne necessarily serve the the genuine

00:15:02

transformation of the most people, but the people who are best at persuasion. The people the people who are best at getting attention and persuading people to spend money are the people who make the most money. Yeah. Well, and there's something to be said for, well, good. Persuasion is the skill I want to learn. So, this person's good at marketing. Let me learn from the best. And I think there's actually something to that where you can kind of you can learn from people who are good at it. But the

00:15:30

question is, how well can you take the meat and spit out the bones because there may be parts of that that you're not going to do because they're not going to feel good for you. So then you're having to do this job of filtering and saying, "Well, I know this person's good persuasion. I want to get good persuasion." not necessarily in the way they're doing it because I want to make sure it feels good to me. But now you're in this place where instead of just learning from

00:15:51

someone like you where you're like, I can just basically get this wholesale and just use it. You're kind kind of saying, all right, I want to filter this through my values but still try to get the good stuff. And and I'll say the people who are successful for a long time also they need to be able to deliver to a certain extent because otherwise they would get negative word of mouth working against them too much and you don't like staying pattern power. I think it's the people who are

00:16:16

able to have a quick rise and you're catching them on the rise. The delivery hasn't caught up to have that negative feedback loop for them and you're kind of caught up in that. So so good. Yeah. And you know what, Greg, I and maybe you as well. I have I started in 2009 with several colleagues who were already, you know, maybe some of them are already a little bit established and some of them were just starting out. And now 16 years later, how many of those colleagues are still in business,

00:16:45

right? No, really, isn't that surprising? The longer you go, the the the more they they start dropping off. And I I there are several I'll be honest with you where I mean one in particular I'm not not going to name who they are but they made a lot of money in those early years of strong persuasion webinars and then they suddenly sold their business and just I I don't know what they're doing now. Maybe they're still serving clients but they're certainly not public anymore. And not only that,

00:17:15

but they left a Facebook page up where they just didn't even care anymore. And the the most recent comments are even from like a year or two ago. They just even bother delete them. Or like, "How the hell do I log into this product where I have lifetime access? I I I only bought it two years ago and I'm trying to access it." And then and then someone else said, "No, don't bother. They don't even respond to any emails anymore." It's that kind of thing where and then

00:17:40

others people like yeah I bought from this person and you know the product wasn't as advertised and I'm like this is this is happening more than more than we we we would like to admit and um yeah and it's really and and I'm not surprised because a lot of those people couldn't sustain just like I couldn't sustain this kind of you know rat race of of the selling webinar selling etc. But let me just also say that persuasion is only one way to get a lot of sales. The other way to, if I can make a very

00:18:16

simplistic dichotomy here, the other way to get a lot of sales is by selling what people want because you basically have two pathways. You can persuade people, you can you can generate demand, right? persuade people that they should want this thing. Um, and then you or you can figure out the market demand and meet that demand and thereby needing a lot less persuasion. And so that is the and there's of course there's like a third factor which is word of mouth. Like you said, you serve people so well. We all have seen

00:18:56

practitioners, service providers, solarreneurs who barely have a website, barely have an online presence, but they're just, you know, sometimes they're healers, sometimes they're, you know, people who do certain services for for for businesses or for other people, and they're just people are so transformed by what they do. um they're so good at what they do and and maybe what they provide is is is not easily duplicatable that the word just spreads like oh they can't they can't they have

00:19:22

to bat people away who are who are inquiring for for for them. So, those are some of the pathways and I'm like trying to do less of the persuasion pathway and do more of the what I call market discovery and word of mouth based on delight from the services pathways and and like that's been my journey over the past um well I didn't really discover market discovery until you know recent years but the but the whole how do I get people to talk about me because they just they just love my work so once

00:19:52

they are in the work they love it so much right And um anyway, I I just that's that's the that's those are the that's where I'm trying to put my energy. All three have value, right? And it's like can we if if the world could put more energy into doing improving their skills and their the light of their customers so much as well as discovering what is needed in the market that people are looking for, trying to buy but can't find. they can't find it because no one's providing it yet or no one asked

00:20:28

them, right? Or they bought what's available and what's available is not that good. If we can find those opportunities and then serve them with so much delight, so much of marketing is taken care of. No. Yeah. I I always think about your phrase, money comes from other people. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's so simple. And and you know, for those of you listening to this, like I I I definitely recommend George's podcast, Business Dow with George Kao, right? So Dowo Tao. Yeah. And Yeah. occasionally you'll say it on

00:21:09

there like money comes from other people because it's easy to focus on what we want to provide and what we see people need. Yeah. Um and so much of the work we do to help folks is okay. How do you position that in a way where they can see it? Give them a gate to step through. That's the gate they're trying to step through because it's the problem they're aware of or the outcome or the right process they want. I I think the challenging thing is there's some businesses I'm curious if

00:21:34

you're agree on this what your take is. There's some businesses that have less of a burden on marketing and sales because people don't need to be convinced that they need it. They just want it. Like you don't really have to market and sell cleaning like house services. The problem in those businesses is like you got to find the people to staff because not a lot of people want to do the cleaning, but there's plenty of demand, right? For like for wedding photography, right? Like you might have to try to persuade

00:21:58

that you're better than the other photographer, but like people are going to hire a photographer for the wedding. It's a known thing people are looking for, right? There's other businesses and I think coaching is one of these businesses which is why people learn quickly they need to figure out marketing and sales no matter how they're going to do it where yes people will benefit a lot but people aren't actively searching for it in the same way. It's true of gyms too like gyms need to be good at sales and

00:22:23

marketing because they're going to get turned because people don't most people don't want to work out. It may be good for them. It may be a good service or what they need, but they need to kind of be reminded and tapped on the shoulder like remember how like you should be working out right now. Yeah. Come and work out. Um yeah. So I think that I agree with you that we want to choose things that people are actually looking for and wanting and that's where market research and positioning comes in. It

00:22:49

doesn't have to be pure persuasion. Yes. But um but I think there is a heavier burden on coaches, consultants or marketing in general than other industries. Yeah. No, that that that's a very good point and there's there's two things I think about here. One is that coaching is much easier to get into than other types of businesses. Um and so because you could do it online and and you don't you don't there's not unlike a you know therapist, psychotherapist, you don't

00:23:17

need a particular certification. And so that's why a lot of people go, "Hey, I'm going to get into coaching because I people, my friends find find it helpful to talk to me." And so maybe I should charge money for this, right? Um, and I've heard coaching, you know, and of course we see the ads for life coaching certifications and whatnot. And it seems so glamorous and like, oh, I could just talk to people about, you know, and ask them questions and and make make good money. Um, so part of it is that there's

00:23:43

a lot of supply. Um, there there is demand. It's just there's a lot more supply. There's a lot there's so much supply that it's not the demand is overwhelm. It overwhelms the the demand. But part of it honestly I still I do think that of course we've all heard of we all know coaches that are so good they can't be ignored kind of thing. Like people go, "Oh, you you have to." It's like when a friend of yours goes, "No, you just have to try it out.

00:24:12

You you have to. I I know you've never heard of this modality before, but trust me, I've done it. It's awesome. You should do it. Okay. So, so so there's that. And then the other part is the opportunity for new coaches who haven't yet gotten so oified in what they're providing and they don't they haven't spent so much money on their website that they have to just go with that niche for a while. the the opportunity for new coaches or or people who are revamping themselves is I think to do

00:24:39

market discovery because most coaches and solarreneurs either suck at market discovery or they or they don't do it. So what I mean is they talk to smart business coaches like us and they, you know, we help them figure out a niche or whatever it may be and they go, "Well, that sounds really good. All right, let's go and let's go and do it." The way I like to recommend people is can you please talk to the people in your network, people that you can easily get a chance to talk to and

00:25:13

find out of the things you could provide what makes them light up and go, "Oh, oh, oh, I can send people your way for that. Oh, I can send people your way for that." You know, and and also talk to the fellow coaches who are turning away clients for whatever reason. They're like, "Yeah, this person's coming to me because they wanted this particular type of coaching or this particular help. That's not really what I do." And see if one of those gaps in the market that's

00:25:43

not being provided for is something that you would be delighted to do, right? And so, and so talk to people, ask them what are they buying in terms of coaching or therapy or counseling or sort of talk support or also what are they not liking? chat GBT helping them with. It's like chat GBT is just not not good for this kind of thing. And find those gaps and see if you can provide a service to meet that gap because I promise you it's going to make marketing so much easier, right? And and and so I think a lot of

00:26:16

solarreneurs aren't doing that. They aren't having enough conversations um to find the market gaps. I call it market discovery. People call it market research or whatever. But if they find those market gaps and those kinds of caring conversations themselves sometimes turn into clients actually or they turn into you know I'm I'm really glad you you've asked me these questions. I hadn't thought about these things or you're now the top of mind person who cares enough to ask these

00:26:46

questions and provide this kind of service. So anyway, so yeah, so I I still like want people to do much more of the market discovery and obviously improving their own skills obviously, but market discovery and talking to more people. So and market discovery is not that and a lot of whenever I talk about market discovery with people, people a lot of times people are say no, I just want to do what I want to do, right? Like I just want to I learned this particular modality and I really love it and that's fine. that modality can

00:27:17

actually serve multiple pain points or uh needs and wants. So, please talk to more people because most coaches aren't. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's like when you listen to that, you know, people are thinking that sounds kind of hard. Like that's a pain in the ass to do. Yeah, that's right. Yes, it is. And what's really annoying is when you're just thinking through something in your head for years and years or trying to sell something for years and years and no one's paying you,

00:27:50

so you just don't have money anymore. That's really hard. So market discovery is much less hard than the alternatives, but it does take work. You've got to get out there. You've got to be in conversations. Um, I'm curious for you this trans this transition over time for you of moving more into integrity with your business. It didn't happen overnight. There may be things that you still look at now and you say, "I don't know how I feel about this." I remember

00:28:17

a conversation we had about charm pricing, $99 versus $100. Yeah. and you very like graciously were like, "Hey, you might consider I was running some offer by you like you might consider just making that a round number and not using charm pricing just because it's there's an inherent manipulation in it. The reason it works and it does work is because it's perceived as a lower number. But it's not really that much of a lower number. It's $1 lower um or five or whatever." Yeah.

00:28:47

Yeah. And so I think that's an example for me where I haven't moved off charm pricing by and large. Everyone can decide these for themselves. It doesn't it doesn't bother me as much, but it's an example of how like I'm still doing the work to clean up certain parts of my business and also assess like how do I feel about this? What feels right to me? Yes. So my question for you is specific to charm pricing or not. Sure. as you've gone through a process of coming into integrity with your

00:29:18

business, how do you resolve those conflicts of like, yeah, okay, I understand charm pricing might be borderline, but I also want to make more money this, right? And there's that trade-off. How do you remind yourself and work through those conflicts? Oh, man, it's so good. I love this. Oh, well, um Okay. Well, be before I get there, I just want to close the the previous topic about market discovery being being hard. Okay. Yeah, it doesn't have to be a chore. If it's framed as it's so much so much

00:29:53

of I have to do this versus I get to do this is of course in our framing of it and that's where coaches can come in very handy keep reminding you of your framing is I see market discovery as discovering. Okay. So, one, there's already an element of surprise and delight like I get to discover what the mark is. The market as you mentioned earlier, your market is the spending of the people you're able to reach. So, it's their decision. It's their votes with their currency. So, you need

00:30:29

to go and discover what they're spending on and what they want to spend on, right? And so you get to there's a discovery element but the other element is your market are other souls like people who are well as we do have genuine suffering have genuine delight have genuine yearnings have a heart that is likely quite delightful to connect with when we connect in that way like like and this will be such a different conversation than than they've ever had because they've either had conversations

00:31:04

with service providers where they're being provided the service or they've had conversations service providers who are trying to sell to them. This type of conversation is like I'm not here to sell anything. What I'm here is to learn what you are looking for what you are what what's what is it that you need right now like and so few people ask them that you know and people might ask them that you know as a friend like oh do you need help with this or that but but like ask like what are you looking

00:31:29

for? It's like what would you like to invest in or like use that you can't find? And it's like oh oh okay and then you know and when you can approach it from I'm trying to get out of this conversation a feeling for them that they've been cared for and a feeling for me that I've been genuinely curious and discovered something then it can be actually a delightful experience from both sides. So I'll put it that you went back to reframe that. I think that's Yeah. So I'm I'm hoping that I'm like

00:32:01

it's almost like I'm trying to start a movement of people like if only people could solarreneurs could talk to their audience, their network more from this kind of caring and curiosity perspective, the world would be a better place. It's kind of like my simplistic way of of thinking about it. Okay, so the integrity part. Okay, so um here's an example that here's an example that that I'm currently wrestling with. I have recently rediscovered doing webinars again because I was, you know,

00:32:33

kind of like disgusted with webinars after after the first couple years and then I'm like I kind of swore them off. Oh, free webinars to sell. I'm never going to do that again. But then I picked it back up in the past year, Greg. And I'll tell you, I'm really glad I did because now I'm doing it differently. And I'll tell you how I'm doing. And I I recommend this to you and to everybody who's listening to this is it's it's actually been an effective marketing method. The webinars I do now

00:32:58

are the first module of a four to six module course, program, mastermind, whatever you want to call it. Okay. So it is free to attend and I call it FTA for short. Free to attend. Well, George, why is it free to attend? Why not just free webinar? Well, because the recording is technically part of a longer course. So, they can buy the recording or if they sign up, they get 72-hour access to the recording. And here's where I start to like hear my conscience go, why not just give them lifetime access to the recording? They

00:33:39

signed up for it. And I'll tell you why. And I'm speaking to my conscience now. Because I have a lot of those recordings on my computer, too. that I've never listened to. Okay, that I've never listened to or a lot of those links in my email that just I keep I keep snoozing that email. Oh, I'll get I'll I'll get to it. I'll get to it. I'll get to it. I'll get to it. 72 hours I find having tested this now seems to be enough time. And on the occasion when someone says, "Listen, I was away on a

00:34:08

trip or something happened in my family and I I couldn't get to the recording, I'll just renew their access for another 72 or I'll I'll just sometimes be and everyone's listening to this is going to use this on me now. I'll sometimes be nice, listen, you here's a lifetime access to the recording." Okay. Yeah. So, but a chance but I have never seen more people listening to my recordings than than now. Now, Some people may say, "George, that was obvious. Why? Why did

00:34:37

you give Lift Lifetime Max recording before for free, right? Like should have been obvious to you to do 72 hours or whatever, 48 hours or whatever. That's how summits do it usually, right? But summits are kind of breathless. Summits are like got 24 hours to listen and then now here's the next batch of speakers." And I'm always feeling breathless with summits. I'm like, "Oh, okay." Yeah. Yeah. My wife the other night like as we're in bed, she's like trying to catch up with

00:34:59

some summit recordings. This is why, you know. All right. So, so because now I got to upgrade now, right? Like there's always this constant pressure to upgrade. So with with this new method, free webinar, they can obviously attend for free and then they can get or they if they cannot attend time zone reasons or whatever, even though they did attend, they get 72 hours. And then another another bonus I give them, if you attend and fill out the feedback form, you also get lifetime access to the webinar recording.

00:35:31

Okay. Now, the webinar recording is module one of a longer program, but because it's module one, I'm not just selling on that webinar because people are literally buying this course. They're not going to buy the course and have module one just be selling them on the rest of the course. So module one is actually delivering value, but it's because it's module one, it gives the context for the rest of the course while also giving some easy exercises for them to have a quick win to say, "Oh, I'm

00:36:01

learning something already. I'm already growing." Okay, so that's been working really well, Greg. I highly recommend it. Um, and so I I do spend the last five minutes of the hour, you know, saying, "Hey, for those of you who want who really like this stuff thus far, you'd like the context where we're going with this, you now understand, you know, in module one, I often uh clearly define a concept they may have heard of or they may have heard me talk about, but now they have a deep understanding of it.

00:36:30

They bust, they have some myths about it that they got, you know, the myths busted. They got some exercises done, a few exercises that are quick wins, like, "Oh, hey, something useful came out of this hour." A lot of them are attending for free. They're like, "Hey, this was free. This was great." Okay. And then if you want to join us for the rest of it, here's the link discounted for the next, you know, week or whatever, you can join at a discounted link. And it's been

00:36:54

working well. And um the lifetime access people the way my like my my course platform is set up the lifetime access to to people get module one lifetime access and at the end of module one they get a page that says hey you want to upgrade to the rest of it you can people who buy the course that page disappears for them. So it's just some kind of dripping process anyway. So, um, so that's the that's the tradeoff, I guess, right? It's like, well, why don't you just give lifetime access recording to

00:37:26

everyone because people are now getting a lot more value from me than they did. And by the way, people don't. And the other, so the way I kind of uh rationalize this trade-off or like test it out and see is it really ethical or not is do people email me and say, "George, it doesn't feel right that you only gave us 72 hours." And Greg, how many people have emailed me that? Zero. I'm assuming no. No. No one. After having more than a thousand people go through this process already in the past

00:37:58

couple months. So, right. It's funny as as you were explaining that. I don't know if this has been your experience, but it's like no matter what deadline you choose, someone's mom is always sick. Like someone's dog, no matter what deadline you choose, you will get an email after it closes saying, you know, I was taking care of my dog. But so you got to just choose the deadline and go with it. But I think that makes sense. You know, it's like one of the things I'm taking from

00:38:25

that is one strategy or tactic or approach is not inherently ethical or unethical. Webinars, for example, are not inherently unethical. It's going to be how you approach them, your intention, and also just what it is. Is it of value? Is it not of value? Yes. So, I think it's cool that you were able to come full circle, dip your toe into something that was associated with a certain way of marketing. Yes. And then do it your own way now. And also, you've had a lot of time to be able to innovate and know, well, if I

00:38:57

have these best practices, then I can make this work in a way that's going to feel better for me. Yes. Absolutely. And um and also I want to just you know another trade-off I had to make in my mind or another qu integrity question is well are you dangling the carrot of the rest of the course to the free webinar people do they feel badly that because as all you know marketing and statistics the m the majority don't sign up for the rest of the program or you know there are going to be lots of people who attended the

00:39:28

free webinar who aren't going to to continue with the rest of the And am I making them feel bad? Well, the feedback tells me no. The feedback are like they're really grateful they came to this free webinar. They got a lot out of it. So, I know then I'm doing well. And I'll tell you uh another quick example recently that I just experienced where I may have swung I maybe and you can tell me what you think. I may have swung a bit too much into the other direction where I'm like delivering so

00:39:56

much value in the first webinar or in the first module that they felt like they didn't need to continue with the rest of it. Okay. So, I I did a a webinar called uh the case study mindset or case study advantage where I in an hour I really did a the feedback was this. I did such a good job of of inspiring them to take on a case study mindset with their own clients because a lot of them didn't know about this or a lot of them had heard about this but didn't wasn't inspired to really do it

00:40:26

and didn't know how to do it. So in that single hour I inspired them to to to when they when they get a client instead of just to start work with them to really pause and get a better write down the situation the client is in right now their presenting issue. what questions they have, what blocks they have, like write it down very clearly. What what was the pain points, what do they need help with, you know, what what's their our um common friend Tad says island A. You know, it's like they're at island A,

00:40:58

they need to get to island B and your service is the boat to get them from island A to island B, right? Paradise from from hell right now or whatever it may be. So the case study mindset says take a pause and actually write down more carefully and maybe ask the client to describe their current situation. Okay? So that in the future when you do the story of the after it's a very clear you know dichotomy clear transformation and then I taught them in the that hour how to write the case study okay I gave

00:41:30

them an example and like deconstructed the example as well and afterwards people were like this was such a good webinar how can I send it to people right and then and maybe I didn't give the launch long enough but I waited a week and I had like two sales those are three sales and by by of the full course and by the by that point usually after a week I usually have like 15 or 20 and maybe by the end of the course sale I have like 60 to 80 but it's like I knew my numbers so I'm tracking I'm like if I have two or three

00:42:00

at this point after the launch I maybe have like seven something like that and that's not going to be enough for me to to continue on. I could have. But so, so first of all, Greg, I'm gonna ask you, have you done something like that before where maybe you with a client you gave so much that they didn't continue to you or what what are your thoughts on this? That's interesting. I think the the biggest the biggest uh analog that I see the closest analog would Yes. Yes. like over coaching or overgiving in a

00:42:35

consult a sales conversation, right? um which I which a lot of new coaches struggle with because they're still insecure about their skills. So they're very tempted by the positive feedback they could get of or even just within themselves knowing I feel like I actually move this person forward and usually it's not actually the most helpful thing they could do anyway because they end up maybe giving some advice or giving too much action item where really they just need to help the person invest in am I

00:43:04

making this change at all. That's the whole in my mind the whole purpose of an initial conversation when you talk to someone is just helping someone decide are they going to do it. I remember I had sometimes I tell the story of my dad generally in good physical shape but for years like wanted to lose a little bit of weight and I've always been interested in fitness and he would always make these little comments. I'd visit him, you know, over the summer for a little bit, stay with my parents, and

00:43:29

he'd be like, "Yeah, I should probably lose a little bit of weight or whatever." And I'd always end up in these conversations where I would like try to actually help him. I'd be like, "Okay, what are you eating right now? You know, what are you kind of what's going on? What could we do for a workout?" And I try to help him. It never worked. And then once, this is when I was actually doing my fitness coaching business. So, I was in more of a mindset of like, I'm doing this as a

00:43:55

business. And he was like, I actually could use support. I actually do want to do something. So, I was like, all right, I'm just going to pretend it's not my dad. I'm just going to pretend it's a potential client. And I had a conversation with him and I was like, hey, like before we talk about what you're going to change or anything, like why you why now? Why do you actually want to do this? And he gave me some reasons and I'm like, you know, okay, what do you feel like is getting in the

00:44:18

way? I went through like I held myself back. Don't over coach right now. And then I still gave it to him for free. Like I I had some modules and I did some coaching with him and he lost like 20 pounds. And I was like, "Okay, that's why you need to Yes, we want to be giving when we're in the marketing and sales process, but it's a different type of giving. It's not necessarily a trying to provide the full solution in however much time you have in the webinar on the call because that's not possible to do.

00:44:48

So what you'll end up doing is like this partial solution that gives them just enough to feel like they can go do that on their own but not enough to actually help them succeed when they try to do it. And so it's hard to find that balance. It sounds like in the case study webinar, you gave people just enough to feel like they had enough to do what they needed to do and actually let me just process this and try to work on it. I don't need I can't take more on now with a full course because I have

00:45:13

all this homework now. That's right. So, but not enough maybe to serve them totally fully as you would have had invested in the full course. Yeah, I feel like I've done that maybe less in my launches, but it it's more a trap I'd fall into on a sales call when I'm like, I really care about this person. I want to give them everything I can. Yeah. You don't end up signing on. Yes. And what I, you know, you then wonder what happens to the person afterwards who says, "Oh, I think I have

00:45:40

enough. Do they really, you know, it'd be interesting to follow up with them and go, did you really do anything, you know, last year when we talked, right?" Yeah. Well, because it's possible. It's possible, Jor, is that like that whole thing was meant to just be one webinar. Could be. like that could have been the takeaway is not that you sold it wrong but that actually it wasn't it wasn't enough of a scope for course and you actually delivered a great thing and that should have been a piece of content

00:46:04

or just its own paid I don't know right it's a very wise observation because I think that is probably true because later on I'm thinking like because it was meant to be like okay now that you know how to do this sign up to like do it with each other right and people didn't want to do it with each other so so they want to do it on their own and so the essentially And this is this was an example where I did not do any market discovery. This is one of those cases where I'm like, I want to

00:46:31

do this. I think it'd be really cool for people to do this. I believe they need it, but they don't want it. They they are fine joining a free webinar for me. And I should have known by the numbers of the signings of the free webinars lower than my other webinars. Okay, that it's like the ultimate market discovery is when you actually launch and then see what happens. That's that's the final step. I call it the credit card test. Will they put the credit card down? Yes or no? That's right. Yes. Yes or no? Yeah.

00:46:57

Yeah. Yeah. So, love that. Um, okay. So, we were going to talk about AI and like I've got so curious about kind of the broader um Yeah. business theme. Yes. Let's dive in very briefly and then maybe we have another conversation about it if we want to go deep. Yeah. And I I don't have I don't have to go right away, but you might have an appointment. So, cool. Yeah. Um, so we've both now launched little AI digital clone chat bots of ourselves using our content. We both use deli.ai.

00:47:30

Yeah. And I'm curious for you, how has the process been from you deciding to do that to actually having something up and running? Yeah, that's so cool. Well, first of all, tell people where where to find yours. Baxon.ai is the I love it. You have a you have a whole domain name for it. That's so cool. Yeah, it just auto auto redirects, right? So it's easy to Exactly. Yeah. fax andai. Yeah. And mine is ai.jorgeKao.com. No. www. ai.jorgeKao.com. Anyway, so um so the process was surprisingly easy

00:48:03

because of how Deli makes it easy. Like you go there and you basically see, you know, an upload or like like I So here's here's the thing, Greg, and and you you are you you have this as well. We both have YouTube channels and I over time I started gathering a playlist of my best YouTube videos based on the stats like oh this one got a lot more likes per views than my average ones. So people yeah worthwhile worth pe people watching again. So I started gathering a bunch over the years and now I had over 300. You might you

00:48:42

might argue whether they're really my best or just my better than average ones. Uh 300 better than average uh videos of mine. So 300 of them and Deli is amazing because I could just plop in that YouTube playlist link. Yeah. And it over several hours or days, I don't remember. They were able to pull the transcripts of all of those you 300 YouTube videos and there's my content. That that's that's part one. Part two was um well part super easy. We both have blogs. You put in the link to your website and

00:49:18

Deli ingests all the pages of your website. It's so the training part is the initial training part is not hard. What I'm still needing to do and I I'm curious about where you're at with this. I I thought, "Oh, it's so easy. I just plop in these two links and voila." and I shared the link with with the world. But then as people started having conversations with it, people started saying, "George, uh, your AI is getting this part wrong, right?" Or most of them are saying, "Hey,

00:49:48

George, I like that your AI is different from chat GPT because it has your values and your voice more in it." And so I like that. And people are like, I'm I'm actually really grateful people are using my AI to like draft sales pages and stuff. I'm like, really? That's cool, right? Why not? you know and um but because of hallucination AI hallucination that's happening with our AIs too and so now I realize I need to set set up a regular process if I'm disciplined enough to really improve my

00:50:18

AI where I go in and deli makes this easy you go into the conversations that have been have had you know recently or whatever you click through to the conversations and that's one of the things that um Deli doesn't make super clear to people is their chats with our that's one of the things I want to chat about is the ethics of that because you can because you can anonymize the replies there is an option to do that and then you don't see anything. Yes. Or by default we're seeing every we're

00:50:45

seeing all the conversations that people have and once they log in then you have some you have some uh things that where they're not anonymous and you know I've had people email and say hey can you read this and is anyone else going to read this too which is important. So, I've been like, I can see it. Pretend that you're having a conversation with me via email or text and I'm seeing it. I'm not going to share it with anyone else. As far as I know, no one else is seeing your stuff. The company is to a

00:51:11

certain extent. I mean, I'm sure they're but, you know, I've thought about having some disclaimer because you can add a little disclaimer bar and say like these chats are saved to Greg's like um log like member area or something that he could read something like that or anonymize it because that's like it's rubbing me the wrong way. it's not clear enough that you like you're divulging all your personal details and I again now I'm not realistically clicking into that many people are

00:51:41

having a lot of conversations with them but yeah so I going back oh were you gonna say something no no I was going to say the way that I've been rationalizing it thus far is this when people use our AIS they're not logged in by default and their chats come through to us as anonymous anonymous they're all anonymous. It's only after they run out of anonymous message uh credit limit that they need to log in, create a free account, right? They create a free account with their name. They can even anonymize their name

00:52:14

too. They can call themselves, you know, Jane Smith or whatever. And then they have additional credits to keep chatting with our AIS. So, it's only the logged in people, which are, as you have seen, are relatively few who we know and and who who we know who it is. And when I've clicked into the anonymous conversations, there is no way that I know who they are. They're not telling me, hey, this is, you know, Bob or whatever. Um, you know, and even they say their first name like which Bob, you

00:52:41

know. So, um, so I think that's but you're right. I think having that disclaimer is important. But I I was saying that what I need to start doing is actually going into those conversations and then in the AI replies, there's always the revise button. Yeah, I don't know if you noticed, Greg, but like when you click the revise button and do a new answer, it trains our deli so that next time they do it right. And one of the examples is um del my deli was pronouncing my last name KO

00:53:09

in the voice and then and then one of my clients knows that's not correct. It's like no, no, no, it's not KO. No, no, it is. And so I had to revise it and I said, no, it's it's Kao like Dao, you know, like like you know, Dao Deing kind of thing. And now it's doing it correctly. I'm like I'm pretty with the voice too with the swing right anyway. So um it's not hard to initially train it but I think it takes work to actually refine it in a way where you're you can

00:53:39

trust it to give all the right answers that that you want it to give. Um and also the other thing is it's not just the value is not just okay now people can chat with my AI AI and get benefit but the value is in us going into the conversations and doing market discovery. I'm like seeing this as oh my god this is amazing market discovery tool because now I can figure out what they actually are are wanting. Yeah. And I know Deli is trying to have a feature where they can synthesize some of the things and say hey actually your

00:54:10

audience is asking these types of questions. Your audience wants this. This is not that good right now. It's not good now. That's the problem. So, it kind of has to be manual. Yeah. But yeah, I think if they got good insights, it could be quite useful. I agree with you. I thought the process of creating the clone originally was easier than I expected. Yes. And the process of refining the clone is I don't know what my expectations are, but it's probably going to be hard. I'm also hesitant to do too much and then

00:54:40

mess up what it's doing well, right? because you can kind of give it instructions on how to engage with people. It's like, well, if I give it this instruction, will it get worse or better? And how will I know? So, now that it's out in the real world, I'm almost hesitant to tweak too much. I think revising the replies is probably the safest way to give targeted feedback. Yeah. The other thing is like I think this is just worth highlighting. Yeah, it's really easy to create the clone. It only

00:55:05

took 10 plus years of creating content every single week, right? On. So if you have one blog post, bro, you know, you're not going to have, you know, this this outcome that we're talking about. So it's actually made me weirdly because you think AI kind of gets rid of us creating content. Some people might think that. To me, it's made me even more bullish on you need to be creating content with your unique experience and views. Not creating content with chat GBT. That's just this

00:55:32

generalized blog post. You need to have a very unique take. And that's right. I'm sure you've heard this again again, but I think some of these pe some people listening might not have heard this like the content that's going to survive AI is content that has to do with your personal experience and credibility. Hey, so I'm creating a content piece of content right now. This is very meta called like you know I created and la and monetized a digital clone in 30 days. So yeah, can't really create the chat GPT version

00:56:03

of that because it's not like how do you create a digital clone in chat dbt will step one, step two, step three. You be like what happened with Greg? What did he learn? What did he do wrong? That's the type of stuff that I think people need to double down on. Yeah. No, it's brilliant. Yeah. And um also I think what is on my mind and a lot of people's minds is what does that mean for our business models? Yeah. Going forward. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Oh my gosh. Um, my thoughts are that we need to we need

00:56:35

to keep talking about this honestly because I I don't Okay, so no, I I I love what you just said actually. I I want to just close that loop and that the more content that's unique, authentic to our voice that we've created, the more valuable our AI clones are. what most people are creating. It's like I chatbt is better than this AI. What what's so what why why would I use this one? Like there there have been so many, right? There have been therapist AIs, there have been, you know,

00:57:07

philosophy philosopher AIs. I'm like, well, that's fine, but I could do the same thing with Chat GPT. So, but it's like, no, no, Greg's unique take on things. He's very he's very experienced in marketing, very wise. It's different than what you get with Chat GPT. And I I and you and I have both seen this. I I always tell my clients like like you will know like in your own field when you talk to chat GBT or Google Gemini or whatever you'll know that AI is giving very shallow average answers

00:57:36

like when I when I when my clients ask AI for a marketing plan and I look at the marketing plan I'm like no I mean yeah it's fine but you can get that on any blog that's not what I would recommend to you knowing you and also knowing my own values and philosophies and that's not what I would recommend. So that's why our AIS become become valuable is all the content. So that's awesome. So the business model that I'm planning for, okay, is that when I relaunch my membership program next year

00:58:09

because I have an annual membership that launches each year. And up to now the membership has been you get my courses um you know as part of the membership and then you get you know like weekly a weekly call group call with me and you also this year I added in uh and you know this is related to something we said earlier Greg this this is this is another year for me where I like uh dialed down my business a lot because I was kind of going back to being humble again and like serving the people because last year my is my membership

00:58:43

program was 90 members. This year I purposely made it 30 members. Same price. Same price. So I like and I moved to Mexico partly for that reason to be able to experiment with things like this. So um so this year like they have some one-on ones with me, okay, weekly calls. There's a personal, you know, private forum, member forum and my courses and um you know some like accountability, partnering, that kind of stuff. Okay. Next year they're going to get the same things except they will also get an advanced version of my AI

00:59:16

that's trained on all of my 25 courses because right now my public AI the AI.jorge.com is only trained on my public content not on my paid courses but this advanced work. So, so I'm seeing that I think it's wise for everyone who's watching this to start thinking about training your public AI that's trained on your public content. Just like people watch your social media and watch your YouTube channel, read your blog post. Why do they have to read and watch when they can talk to your public content? That's

00:59:48

version one. Version two is an advanced AI that has sort of like the higher level what you would pay Greg for type of content that you would more actively go and revise the answers for to say oh that question I'm going to why I want to answer it for my paid clients in this way um in more detail with more stories with more nuance or whatever it may be that the public content people might not even have the patience to to to read all that for example right or might not even be advanced enough to be able to use

01:00:17

that information So that's what I'm seeing. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. So you're thinking maybe have two instances. Yes. Of the clone. Yes. And one of them has access to your paid courses and then include that as part of your paid offer which is your membership. And that's sort of how you're currently thinking about it. Yeah. because I I I don't I I think it's still too early to make enough money selling access to our AIS because I I've been just like you have I've been

01:00:46

testing my public AI now for uh almost a month, right? Maybe. Yeah. Almost a month and uh dozens of people have have dozens of my not just random people but people who are in my audience who are like true fan type people have used my AI but only one person has upgraded. Okay. What? What's your upgrade price point? $10 a month. And then and then this person is like uh it's like a super user because she upgraded for 10 bucks a month to have a lot more messages with my AI with with my public content, not

01:01:19

even my my private content AI. And then she she exhausted those messages pretty like within days. And she's like, "George, what what what next?" So I created a $20 a month tier for her and that's it. That's I've got one customer. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Okay. I So I have five minutes is let's if you're down let's go all the way to the five minutes and then maybe we have a follow-up combo because I I have more thoughts on this but I love that distinction like here's how I'm thinking about it.

01:01:49

You have this AI I actually see it more as an extension of free content. It's closer to that to me than it actually is to paid coaching. Right. Um, so you could do it as free lead genen just the same way you'd have your free content be part of marketing. Yes, you could view it that way. It's just more interactive. Yes. Um, and you maybe you always keep it free and you figure out then the game is how do I get the right people to move from this free thing into a paid offer and Delphy actually I think has some

01:02:17

interesting ways to do that. Yes. The other is um this is paid and it's standalone. People pay just for this. That's what I experimented with this last month. I did get 50 people onto a 25 a month. That's amazing. Wow. But that took seven emails mentioning it throughout the month, which is quite a bit. Yeah. I really focused on launching it. Yeah. So, and that what you net like 2,000 or something from that. There were some people paid annual. Did you have a do you have a free and a paid tier?

01:02:51

Yeah. 20 messages free then goes to 200 for paid. So, I proved you can do it, but that's not going to change my life. Like one or 2,000 a month. Like, it's it's fine, but like to put that much effort into it. I wanted to test if people would pay for I needed to have that information though. Would people pay for it stand alone? I don't think that's the way. I don't think the way is invest in making the best AI you can and then that's one of your core offers. Maybe you see it as

01:03:17

a front-end offer. Yeah. Then bring people deeper. And then there's what you're thinking of, this is instance three, I think, which is you view it as a way to amplify the value of a paid offer that's not just the AI, your membership, your one-on-one, your group coaching program, and you offer more access or only access to people who are in the paid thing. And it becomes like your coaching assistant, you know, your support person to help them go deeper into the course. Yes. I don't know frankly of those three

01:03:46

I'm not sure which will be five years from now we'll be talking and say this was actually the way we should have known it was just going to be a free it's basically a lead magnet you know it's version I don't know what we'll say you know or we should have known it it's only really really useful as part of the paid thing I will say as standalone I've been really surprised by people are also using mine to generate content sales pages emails that's probably the biggest

01:04:12

usage right Yeah. Um I had some prompts early on of like help me with my niche and people did use those prompts to explore niche. But even then the output was languaging. How do I describe what I do? I think people are enjoying it more as a tool. They don't have to do as much thinking. Go do this for me as opposed to let's have an interaction the same way we would on a paid coaching call. Because frankly like that takes effort. It takes work from the client to say how do I have this conversation and keep

01:04:40

following up to its responses. People don't keep following up. It gives them an idea. They're like, "Oh, that's an interesting idea." And then they stop using it. That's right. I'm not sure it's going to replace coaching in that sense because there's something about the human accountability of being in a relationship and on a call where saying, "All right, I got to do some mental labor right now to answer Greg's questions and to ask questions and I'm

01:04:59

going to go back and forth that I don't think people are necessarily wanting to put the work on with AI until Agentic AI makes it so easy for us to just have the AI will know to follow up." And in that way, I think audio is better. Like people aren't using my audio as much, right? But for me using it, I'm more likely to invest in what feels like a coaching conversation with an AI if it's audio versus chat because I can riff. That's right. Yes. Yes. And the audio is surprisingly good, by the way. Right. Um

01:05:33

Yeah. I I want to encourage people also this just came to me. You said sales pages and stuff like that. Try using my AI to interview you to create content. I like that. Yeah. Just like, "Hey, I'm a, you know, holistic healer. I kind of stuck creating content. Can you ask me? Can you interview me and and then create a blog post from it? Go, you know, and and try that." But but yeah, there's a lot of uses to like ah the Greg flavor a AI, you know, the George flavored AI. And I

01:06:05

think I think we're gonna come up with more you as you come up as you come up with more uses, you can send another email, another two emails, say, "Hey, people are using it for this reason now. Try that out and see see if it's really helpful." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, awesome. Thank you for your time. I will link to some various stuff so people can more about you and Yeah. feel free if we maybe we book a follow-up conversation.

01:06:29

We should we should do that. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. All right. Thanks, brother. Good. Thanks, man. See you.